what of commercialism...to what extent is artistic integrity (and avant-gard-ism) intact when a band starts pandering to a mass audience, signs to a major distirbutor, and basically starts marketing / producing music as opposed to creating art............photo-shoots in synced get-ups et al

i think the future lies in artists/musicians who will spread their art for free..basically keeping it seperated form their prime bread-earning vocation...to this end, i see net lables making great head-ways in promoting non-conventional and non-commercial musical approaches.......sadly prrsently this phenomena is mostly on the electronic side of things but hopefully the aesthethic will permeate the metal and rock world soon

Totally agree with this!

Isn't that what every band does, produce and market their music? Traditionally.

My hopes for the future is one where bands & artists on the fringes can keep releasing their music on physical formats (cd, cassettes, vinyls, 78'ers etc), even though they may not produce that much financial income (like in the early/mid 90's with labels like Napalm and Misanthropy actually releasing stuff like Korova and In The Woods, though it might not have generated as much money as a Mayhem clone would have in 1995). As long as the labels provide artistic freedom I see no reason why the musicians and labels shouldn't be able to make some cash. And as long as the bands keep creating music of high (and progressive) quality, I don't care if they're on Nuclear Blast (like Bal-Sagoth and Meshuggah, who keep doing their stuff even though the label would like to put some fancy female operavocals into it or something...). As long as they refuse to bend over and compromise their artistic visions, they can do what ever they want.

Personally, I will always refuse to pay for music that does not exist outside computers. Print it on a cd, I'll buy it. Mp3 just makes it easy for me to find new albums to buy.

actually all the leaders of originality in metal are bands making money with their music...so i guess you are right..........it comes down which bands are true to themselves.......but it is hard to respect 30 plus year old men prancing about in corspepaint and fake blood as well as uniformly black / metal clothing and accessories.............

the good stuff speaks for itself......meshuggah is a good case in point

I think we agree about the main differences but still I'd be interested to know your opinion on these topics.

According to you what's the difference between Prog and AGM?

What the difference between Alternative and AGM?

And though some already answered to that question?

What's the difference between Post metal and AGM?

What's the difference between Post BLACK metal and AGM?

Thanks in advance

The difference between prog and AGM is

a) one could say that AGM sounds alot crazyer than prog
b)AGM has no dominant instrument
c) MOST IMPORTANT: AGM is the closest to modern music structures and composition you can get (in the world of metal ofcourse)
d) Prog follows a normal structure and is usualy within range of the 18th century MAJOR and MINOIR harmony and estetics......


...i'm sure I forgot something

Between Post-BM & AGM:
They overlap. However, PBM is always, of course, rooted in BM - that is, a similar sound, somewhat satanic or nihilistic message (which is extremely important when defining what is BM or not - the spirituality MUST be a part, else it is not Black)... it just takes the traditional BM sound a bit longer, a bit more modern. Most bands I can come up with that are supposedly Post-BM use electronics in some form - Aborym, DHG, et c. As I said, they overlap, since for example DHG are obviously both AGM and PBM (the last three releases, mind you). However, a band like Anaal Natrahk or 1349, who've both for some reason been labelled PBM, are not avantgarde.

The way I see it is this: Post-Black Metal is an unnecessary term. PBM is a dead end, I cannot see how the genre can progress if everything that strays a small step away from the traditional BM sound is constantly labelled as PBM. The nature of BM is, or should be, progressing all the time. Bands like Furze or 1349 or Deathspell Omega could be called PBM, but to me they are the outer limits of black metal (the avantgarde), pushing the boundaries for what is still black metal. The state of BM as something that is written in stone and doesn't/shouldn't progress is just daft, even though it's unfortunately the most widespred attitude. Like both guys from 1349 and DsO have said - what Euronymus did and said was just the beginning. Black Metal has yet to reach it's full potential, and by placing bands like those in a PBM label, you hinder the progression of Black Metal, keeping it in it's (supposed) current state of regression and stalemate. The original genre must really die first (as punk seemed to have done back when postpunk arrived), and the new post-genre must be a big step away.

And those bands who are called PBM could just as easily be called "techno/industrial BM" or "progressive BM" or "avantgarde-BM" or whatever.

And, uhm, to answer your question... Post-BM is a stupid label, Avantgarde Metal is not. Some bands are both, most aren't...
But I guess that post-BM could also be bands that once did play BM but are not anymore. Fleurety, Solefald, Arcturus (if Aspera is BM)... perhaps even Manes and Ulver? Yeah, Black For Death and A Quick Fix Of Melancholy are both Post-BM, sure. Scrap that thought.





---
And I ask again - what the hell is Post Metal? Come on, I've NEVER heard that term before and I'm becoming curious!

Very interesting comments. That’s indeed what I thought too.
On the other hand concerning your d) even though I agree with the main idea behind it (that is to say that they tend to use a more orthodox harmonic language compared to AGM.) I have to specify that:

*AGM (as staying mostly tonal) still uses frequently the minor major harmony as well (even though more loosely)
*Prog uses many early 20th century musical language devices including Odd time signatures, constant time signature changes, extended chords, different other modes (from the traditional major /minor scales).
Well of course even if the prog people think these language elements are innovative, they are actually nothing new under the sun as Stravinsky, Mihaud, Debussy, Ravel, Holst and many other early 20th century composers already used them a century before. And I don’t even mention jazz musicians .
Well at least they sound innovative for popular music world which is not familiar to that kind of stuffs. But for the rest these elements sound very standard.

Awesome post man! Very instructive !





I ask you too cause I mostly wondering.

Here's an article about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-metal

It is supposed to be an mix between Heavy metal and post-rock.
But here again that just shift the question: what's the difference between art rock (avant rock) and Post-rock?

According to the few I've heard it sounds like a mix between doom metal, prog metal and avant-garde metal experimentation.
But I'm not convinced by the real existence of this genre yet.

FRED:
Thank you.

I'll look that Wiki-link up.



Hm, I've always heard that Art Rock is a form of '70s prog rock, I even think that the more commercial bands were called Art Rock rather than Prog Rock. So that gives like 20 years difference between art & post rock (bands like Mogwai, right?). That newer definition of Art Rock was totally new to me.

wow , wow and wow !!!

well, AGM would really be anything off the beaten path in metal then.....

the "beaten path" includes (in terms of popular bands) the likes of pelican and isis, who are merrily regurgirating an entire hippy generation's ouput in distortion with the major chords replaced with minor......as opposed to neurosis or (to a lesser extent) mastodon who have created and are creating there own unique identity.....

so essentially if it noodles and trudges along with a sense of well-founded groove and sounds like metal elevator muzak it is post-metal/rock ...NOT AGM...on the other hand if it keeps you awake and continously jolts in ideas, instrumentation. themes or structure it is AGM... witness Korovakill or Mr. Bungle

and if it is too mired in the basic hiss-ridden epic trancey(read boring and unneceassrily long) landscapes and the typical "woe me and hate thee" aesthetics of black metal it aint AGM.........surprisingly and thankfully founding fathers of BM (like emperor and mayhem) moved on long ago and actually carved/engraved their names in the AGM pedigree by releasing amazing music of the "advance guard"

though i wish it was all soooo crystal clear...(un?) fortunately the definition debate can go ad infinitum

Wow I thought I could quickly read through this thread but you guys are posting real novels about this haha.

I liked what FRED said though, that the lack of aesthetic definition is the definition of avant garde.

One could also argue that there is no such thing as avant garde music as long as the elements of it are taken from various genres. Because these genres have preconceptions too and just mixing them together can already go against the understanding of avant garde of others. I would like to say that the music this website is about is just about bands that have a distinct sound and did or do something that has never been done before. In this case one could also argue that Bathory is avant garde. In my opinion there is no such thing as real avant garde. For me it is a very nice sounding term that labels all arts that have a clear yet uncommon concept. Oh and it´s there to give pretentious pricks something to label themselves with haha.

TRIDENT: I second a lot of those statements.

Especially since AgMETAL is bound to the metal genre, it's only new in that context. But I've already written that up high above in this neverending thread so I won't go back there...

To me alot of avante garde bands actually aren't what i would define as avante garde.

To me avante garde is just a fancy word for experimental i wouldn't know the difference but most of this stuff which is like written in 4/4 with slight variation in vocal style or use of different instruments (arcturus/bal sagoth/"Black avante garde") isn't avante gard at all music should be about the artists own expression and i don't think true music and musicians write in this dull and boring 4/4 way.

What do you think guys? Has the post-black metal any future descendants like post-impressionism had expressionism? Or we already know the name of it; avantgarde (black) metal?