Of course, the influences in the avantgarde metal spring back from all kinds of music, way back to the 14th century and forwards over all of the earth. But when was the term AGM coined? Was it originally only to describe the ecclectic style of Into the Pandemonium, or was it back then (mid/late 80's) considered an extreme metal subgenre of its own (like black metal in the early 80s - plain raw heavy/thrash with satanic image)?

What 80's-bands could then be considered AGM, besides Celtic Frost - progressive death/thrash bands like Voivod, Nocturnus, etc?

When did the AGM term start being used for the Norwegian bands (VBE, early Ulver, Fleurety...)? To me, a turning point of the Norwegian AGM-scene could be when the young Ulver decided to record "Babylon Fell" (from Into the Pandemonium) for their rehearsal back in '93. That, plus the first demos/rehearsals of VBE, Aura Noir, Fleurety and In The Woods. Not to forget Arcturus' My Angel 7", which was pretty strange.
But was it recieved as avantgarde? When did the press start picking the term up?

Chrystof, when you began Korova back in the early 90's, did you guys have any notion of AGM, or did you just try to push the limits as far without giving a damn about genres?

Some very interesting questions, stated in a rather confusing way... sorry.

Hi Andreas,

yes that's a very interesting question! As far as I am informed you are right. "Into the Pandemonium" of CELTIC FROST has been the first album declared explicitly as "Avantgarde Metal".

I browsed through my old Text-Files. In Autumn 1994 we wanted to put "progressive black metal" into the adds and infos for KOROVA "A Kiss in the Charnel Fields". But NAPALM RECORDS didn't like this term. They said "progressive" and "black metal" would be a total contradiction. So they took "Northgoatified Cyberbaroque" - a term that we just made up for fun...

We first used the term "Avantgarde Metal" in the Band-Info for the self-released Vinyl-Version of "Charnel Fields". This has been in November 1995. Probably we also used it earlier. But this is the earliest File I could find. I don't remember if also other bands used this term back then. I'll try to browse through some old magazines from that days. Maybe I'll find something.

So for KOROVA - first use of "Avantgarde Metal" between March and November 1995.

Interesting! You seem o have been very early with it then. Northgoatified Cyberbaroque is an excellent term... and it actually fits the album!

"Northgoatified Cyberbaroque"

still it sounds a little bit post-avantgarde or avantgarde 2.0 :)

Ideed, very interesting subject.

Thank you very much guys for these reflections which were very instructive.

One thing I wanted to ask: We know the term was used in the late 90ties issue of the cd but did Celtic Frost use explicitely the term "avant-garde metal" back in 80s, as you seem suggest?

I believe it was used in the 1980s and early 1990s for bands like Celtic Frost. I used it quite a bit around 1996-1997, and the definition I wrote spread far and wide. Of course the label Avantgarde popularized it, and I think I was using the term because of the label and their association with bands like Solefald. Obviously the term was used before then in marketing- Christof mentions Korova's use of the term above. There's a piece of writing floating around called the genres of metal I wrote somewhere between 1998 and 1999. You can still find it with a google search.

Avant-garde (art metal)
The term avant garde is generally applied to bands that try to achieve a higher level of artistry and creative exploration, usually by way of the fey and surreal. Whereas prog metal simply attempts more difficult arrangements, the avant garde throws out the rule book altogether and approaches composition with a fresh, or inventive outlook- complexity isn't an issue, but wild creativity is. Avant garde metal tends to be theatrical and melodramatic, attempting an infusion of art music, impressionistic and disjointed arrangements, and metal. Avant garde is not a genre, but a term that can be generally applied to any band of any genre pushing the boundaries and composing from a truly original direction.
Sigh (Japan)
Korova (Austria)
Oxiplegatz (Sweden)
Ved Buens Ende (Norway)
In the Woods (Norway)
Arcturus (Norway)
Domheimsgard
Fleurety (Norway)
Drawn (Norway)
Ulver (Norway)
Angizia (Austria)
Windham Hell (USA)

Interestingly, I don't really use the term anymore, though it's a great name for a website like this.

James

Anyone knows this Windham Hell band?

Well, Idiot Flesh formed in 1985, released their first album in 1990 and it was definitely a fusion between Avantgarde and experimental, they later disbanded and two of the members formed Sleepytime Gorilla Museum. Interesting that they had the "Rock against Rock" attitude in the musical world, and if I'm correct this meant something similar resistance that generally the Avantgarde has, denying categories and rules, etc. They also used household items to make music, e.g. saw, trash cans, megaphone as well as other more classical instruments like saxophone, castanets, trombone and cello.

FREON: Verily interesting! I guess that's the standard definition we've agreed on here so you were probably one of the first to sum it up.

Does anyone remember the AGM mailing list? Many Jester Board regulars used it I recall... that was where I first came in contact with the term, I had already heard many of the bands though. I think they listed these, plus some more...
Arcturus, DHG, VBE, ITW, Fleurety, Ulver... (of course) but also (back then) new acquiantances, like Atrox and Korova (made me buy A Kiss In The Charnel Fields without hearing them before - hey, if it's AGM, it's got to be great!). Anyone else remember?

When they formed in 1985 they were known as Acid Rain and they released one demo tape entitled "We Were All Very Worried" in 1987. It's not quite as experimental or as heavy as some of the later stuff, and it's actually got a lot of surf and funk guitar. Kinda psychedelic.

Yeah they were more on the death metal side of AGM. Definite classical influences and a lot of acoustic guitar. Interesting stuff, but a little underproduced. I have two albums. I don't think they've put out anything since 1999, and the one guy just died last year.

This is the reason why I didn't mention it, but yup, you're right. Anyway, till this point no one showed some interest in them.

I concur

do you mean the yahoo-group? if yes, i was also on this list, quite handy with the latest rumours from the jester camp

Yeah, that's the one. Too bad the J-board died, or rather slowed down and faded. Great way to find out new names, like Sunn0))) for an instance, when they were still underground and just strange.